Failure to qualify for the Olympics is the catalyst for the change that needs to occur”
If anyone can turn India’s fortunes around in hockey, it has to be the legendary Ric Charlesworth. Cricketer, hockey star, doctor, and politician, Charlesworth wears many hats. In fact, prior to coming to India as technical advisor for hockey, he was a cricket coach in New Zealand. In an interview with The Indian Express Editor-in Chief Shekhar Gupta on NDTV 24×7’s Walk the Talk, Charlesworth talks about what ails Indian hockey, the changes that need to happen, and his cricketing
•You may know many people who are truly multi-talented, but is there anybody to rival my guest for this week. Mr Charlesworth, It will take me half of the show to introduce you. A champion hockey player, the best hockey player in the world for almost a decade, a champion cricket player, a champion hockey coach, a champion cricket coach, a wonderful sportsman, a doctor and a member of parliament for a decade. Welcome to Walk the Talk. How wonderful to have you on Walk the Talk.
It’s a pleasure. Thank you.
•I have been a fan of yours since my childhood. And we all know you played from ’72 until the late 80s.Who can forget the marauder in that headband. I think teams around the world had come to fear you?
I’m not so sure about that. Perhaps the longevity surprised them. I think that was more than anything.
•Yes because the people who played with you then became coaches in abroad teams to play against you. Ajit Pal Singh, for example, a great centre half, he played against you. In the 86 World Cup he was the coach of the team. So you have seen three generations of Indian hockey players.
Yes, I started in 1972, I remember playing one Harmik who was the captain of the team. I was a young boy playing right wing for Australia. Then few years later in 1975, then, of course, saw I India win in Kualalampur. In 1976, we toppled you in Montreal.
•And we stayed toppled since then?
Well may be that was the start of it. But it took a long time for us to get there.
•What are Let’s go back a little bit. What was hockey like there and what has changed? What led to that top leg?
Now, that I have seen how it works in India I better understand it. I understand what happened. We’re real amateurs in the 70s in Australia. The right winger who played next to me lived 5000 kms away and I saw him when we got in the plane to go away and play together. We didn’t have any time to prepare properly. We’re amateur hockey players. We got together for few weeks a year to play together. India had camps, India had centralised preparations, India had professional players.
•So, India actually had more preparation than you did at that time?
Absolutely, but that’s changed now. In the west we have semi-professional players we’ve proper programmes. It was only after the debacle in Montreal where our hockey team did quite well but the Australian athletes or other sports didn’t do so well, that the Australian Institute of Sport was established. When that was established, then we started to support coaches, support players, build facilities and of course, have centralised training and playing internationally much more.
•You remember any moment from those matches you played against India?
Well I remember as a young boy in 1972, plying against India and feeling very, very threatened and daunted by the prospect. I think four years later in Montreal we were ready and believed that we coul take India and that continued I think.
•India had some wonderful forwards those days?
Yes, they……missing
•People hanging on for too long. Too much set piece, too little innovation?
Well I think one of the problems fo India is there’s been stagnation. Sometimes I see training sessions when I’m here now, that remind me of that time.
So I think there’s a lot of resources and facilities. You come out here this morning and see those boys playing hockey around the country.
•Chandigarh is the home of hockey…
But wherever you go in the country.If you go to Bangalore, If we go to Lucknow, there are boys playing hockey. There are centralized training, there are coaches. You have hundreds of XXX and literally tens of hundreds of boys prepare. Don’t have anything like this in the west.
•But do these coaches, do these facilities make a difference?
Well I think it’s what you do. It’s the quality of what you do is what is more important. Sometimes there’s a lot of quantity and not so much quality in the prepartion.
•Is that the problem you see in India?
It’s one of them, one of the issues.
•An too much training by the rote?
Well I think there’s not enough creativity, there isn’t enough discovery that is important part of learning. You can remember, for instance, how you learnt to work. But you taught yourself. You made a lot of mistakes then you discovered it. The learning process is about discovery, not necessarily being told what to do.
•So what are some of the chronic problems that still exist in Indian hockey? Their strengths…Ok let’s talk about the strengths of Indian hockey, the Indian style of hockey..What we call the sub continental style of hockey
Well we are very attached to it. But I’m not sure it covers all the basics. I think that’s one of the problems. It’s strong in some areas but it has soft spots. India doesn’t have a defensive mentality in some ways about how you are going to stop the other team scoring. You need that in terms attacking, perhaps the attacking approach is too one-dimensional. There’s not enough depth in which they go about it. And certainly tactically, the approach that’s taken is an approach that’s been around for a long time.
•Too set piece?
Well..Yes. I think there’s only one way of scoring. The actual fact is there are a lots of ways of scoring. You have to cover all of them. And we don’t have at the moment, very good field goal scorers. We have some good penalty corner takers. But you have to win lots of corners for that to be useful and also have to take the field chances when they come.
There was a time, say in the past five years when we scored more field goals than before?
Well, I don’t know. I mean, if you look at the statistics they don’t lie. And sometimes we don’t face upto the statistics. For instance, in the Olympic games in Athens, Egypt had more shots at goal and they finished bottom than India. That’s a very scary statistic.
•Ric it’s scary when you say Egypt had more shots at goal than India and Egypt finished at the bottom. B ut when you played against India did you find India predictable because one belief we have in India is sub-continental hockey has become very predictable and since you guys in the western world think more tactics you’ve been able to figure things out. You know if one forward escapes what will he do next. So what to block next.
Well I think you have to have a conceptual understanding of how you play. Sometimes because it’s this is what you do in this situation. That’s learnt by rote then that doesn’t give you the capacity to make a decision when things change or they don’t happen as you want to. I don’t think the individual players from India are predictable at all. I think some of them have very special skills.
•But the pattern with which they play…
As I said it’a a bit one-dimensional. There isn’t enough depth to it. There needs to be other ways of doing things.
•Are they open-minded? Are the Indian coaches open-minded? Is the India hockey establishment open-minded when you tell them there’s a need to change?
I think India has had a important part. In its history now we have had 30 years of not being in the semi-final of a major competition. That’s a long period without any success really. So either you can either keep doing that what you have been doing or you can change. I think it’s not a difficult question to answer. Not be a difficult thing to do.
•But when you raise that what response do you get from the hockey establishment or the powers that be here?
It’s difficult because I think, at the moment, you look at Indian hockey, there’s turmoil in the administration, difficult period. But I think there’s an attachment to the past which is unhealthy.
•Why do you think it’s unhealthy because past is what keeps us going? Nostalgia..
It’s unhealthy because if you look at the past as the last 30 years, it hasn’t been working. And if you look at the past as the last 80 years, there were 50 that were good….
•But that 50 you had very little competition……..
Exactly, Be a contemporary and because there are, as I said, a lot of resources in the country I just think they are poorly focused.
•So we all know there’s turmoil indeed in the administartion. Until the turmoil came were you finding the system was beginning to respond to the questions you were raising? You talk straight. You’re an Aussie
I’m not sure that’s necessarily the Indian way. But I think my arruval signalled the fact that there was some openness.
•You know because we Indians seem to love Aussie coaches. Actually everybody seems to love aussie coaches. You are here, Greg Chapell, you played against him?
Yes
•Not with him, against him?
Yes he was south australian, I was west Australian.
•Enemies?
Yes.
•So many of the IPL teams have Australian coaches. In fact around the world it seems that Aussies make great coaches. But Aussies also talk tough and straight.
Well I think you have to be honest about what’s going on. If there are problems you have to solve them. It’s no good pushing them under the carpet. But if pushing them under the carpet is the approach the dirt remains there and I think that’s what you have to understand.
•Because Greg tried some of that also, but it didn’t quite work so well….
He was only here for a short period of time. Essentially what he was looking for, a young, vibrant team, to play in one-day cricket, Cause he was essentially lead up to the world cup. He didn’t get there and the team failed. Now they have done it and starting to have success I wonder he should be given some credit.
•He should get a lot of credit.
May be he was the catalyst for change, but too early.
•His problem was different from yours and in some ways bigger because your problem is just the mess in Indian hockey. His presence was the presence of o many megastars in cricket.
Well people who had to be selected in the team. That’s a problem. Anytime.
•Is that the problem with hockey as well?
No. I don’t think do much. You are right over there. Players don’t have the same profile the same pressures aren’t there around them.
•And the media doesn’t get so obsessed as the sponsors, logos….
What you have to understand is cricket is easy. Only a handful of countries play. Being in the top 4 isn’t that difficult, about six to eight countries in the competition. If you want do well in hockey. If india wants to play the semi-final of a major competitions of hockey, they have to contend with Germany, Holland, Spain, korea china and then there’s a whole raft of other countries, Belgium, Malaysia Japan…
•Argentina seems to be the bane of India always…
The point I’m making is there’s a lot of those countries. They are not in cricket. In cricket, as I said earlier, the field is very small More countries are coming into hockey. Korea is very good . china is getting better.
They are amongst the ones I mentioned…
•Egypt, Kazakhstan, S Africa..
The commonwealth countries are there in cricket. But a whole raft of other countries. Women’s hockey-it’s going to be USA
•Did hockey change fundamentally with the arrival of synthetic surfaces?
I don’t believe that. That’s one of the excuses that’s been selling in India for a long time. That doesn’t go anywhere with me. This kind of surfaces should suit India. There are skillful players who are quick. You just have to adapt to them.
•Because these are truer surfaces..Short-passing, trapping is easier what in cricket they say you can hit through the line..
Absolutely… the fidelity of the surface is a plus for hockey and for skillful players it’s better. I know in the teams I coach we always want the truer surfaces possible because the untrue surface favours the less skillful team.
•So this is an excuse..also the changes in rules, less whistling now…
The rules are side show. Who has the most powerful penalty-corner takers in the world. Recently it was Pakistan , now India has some of the best…
•India has some of the best penalty-corner takers…
Sandeep Singh is one of the best in the world.. Raghu and Diwakar are very good too. There is a field of people who are good in that area. So it’s not the power game that we are necessarily missing , it’s the total game, the complete picture. For that we need a holistic programme, a consolidatory approach. Paying attention to every detail.
•What are the weaknesses?
There are a lot of things you have to pay attention to. All of the details are important—you have to have level of fitness, technical nuance, you have to have modern sports science and analysis. You have to do all these if you are going to have a consolidated solid team.
•But your own experience so far. Have you felt empowered enough to be able to deliver on…
My role here, is essentially at the elite end of the game. For the national teams—men’s and women’s teams at the elite end of the game and it was about bring out what they do discovery and recommendations.
•How is it going?
I’m at the point where we have seen as much as we can see. There has been a disappointing period , there were difficulties along the way..But these are the things that need to be done.
•Does it look like you want to do it?
I cant answer that now
•When you spoke to Mr Gill did he sound like he would do it?
I had discussions with him for a number of years. And slowly bit by bit torturously over a period of time.
•Why torturously? Is it because of the lack of will or the lack of resources?
From what I see the resources are here… the hockey people don’t have the private sector support that cricket has.. and for just a pittance of what is spent on cricket could run the national game and build a team.
•And you could run a wonderful hockey league…
Yeah yeah…for a pittance of what is required in cricket…. And this is a sport in which india could be the world champions…
•Is the talent base in India good enough to produce a national team..say in the next three or five years?
One cannot answer that question unless you put those players in a contemporary quality programme… I don’t think they have been in one in the past..
•That’s what you are trying to develop?
Thts what you need to be doing in any case…Whether they are good enough or not is only an assumption..Talent is there .. we just for some reason are missing out..
•We Indians honestly believe that you Australians developed a style of your own… that you grew from the sub continental style and you grew from the European style… is there an Australian style?
Yes I believe there is…what you have to do is be true to your roots..and develop the particular aspects and skills you have in your team..and some of our early coaches came from the subcontinent..and we also watched what was happening in europe… and now we are looking at korea and china…all of those programmes have dfferent things to offer..
•It was also the great Australian team that never won an Olympic. Were you just unlucky. You beat everybody. You used to beat India six goals to something.
In Montreal we got to the final. We beat India and Pakistan. We slipped to the last. That can happen. I played New Zealand 16 times in my career. They only beat us one day—the Olympic final……
•Some of the Koreans are very fast. If you see their wingers, they just take off.
They have their strengths and weaknesses. They have tremendous physical strength. Now we are seeing that in China too. I think you have to be watching your opponents and learning from them everyday. May be one of the greatest mistakes that India made was not working on this. Watching out the teams and taking things from them. You are constantly learning. You have an approach and way of playing in India which has to continue get modifiedbecause it depends on who’s available in any particular team over a particular period, what you can do what your strengths and weaknesses are.
•Going back to your own playing dates. How did you manage so many things together? When India went to Australia you played for Western Australia and scored a hundred. You were always giving us trouble. I think Ric Charlesworth was always on the other side of the headlines. Cricket, Hockey, Political career, Medicine—How can one man do so many things?
In Australia, as I said, we were amateurs. We were playing cricket during the summer and hockey during the winter. Possible during the 70s. that doesn’t happen anymore.
•Western Australia was a serious team and you were a part of the team that won the Sheffield Shield twice…
During my time we won four times. We had Dennis Lillee as our spearhead, and Rod Marsh as the keeper.
•Is Dennis Lillee around?
He’s in Chennai. I speak to him from time to time.
•IPL brings him now closer to the north….
You could do those things in the 70s and these kind of things aren’t possible anymore. When I was in university, I was there to study. During the break, I used to play.
•And Politics?
That came afterwards and Politics in Australia was a bit different from Politics in India from what I can see because it’s a different experience.
•So, which is the one you have missed the most—hockey, cricket, politics, medicine?
I loved to play. Playing hockey and cricket were the things that I liked to do most. And you can only play for a short period of time.
•You also coached cricket players. A high-performance coach for New Zealand…
I was with New Zealand cricket for the last two years. That was an interesting job and indeed before I came here I had the offer of the Performance-director of England. Would have been much easier than here. Much more money. My wife wonders why I took this job.
•But why did you?
It was the challenge. Hockey was my first love and it was agreat challenge to see if we could make a difference in India because for hockey as a sport it’s important for Indians to do well. The FIH recognises it. They are interested in the progres of hockey in India and concerned about what’s been happening in the last period.
•Are you dismayed by what has happened in the IHF? Does it leave you sort of in the middle of nowhere?
I’m only a spectator watching it. I don’t understand a lot of the subtleties but…
•It’s not subtle, it’s crude…
I don’t know whether it’s subtle or crude but whatever will happen will see over the next period. But irrespective of that the team goes on and the preparations…
•Do you have a boss to talk to? Who’s the establishment?
As I said, some of those things are not finally determined, there’s an interim administration and those people are responsible.
•You aren’t losing heart, not yet?
I haven’t given up yet. no.
•But have there been moments when you said ‘what the hell’?
It’s been very difficult and India is not easy to get things done, to get around,
•I hope things settle down because if there’s one thing we don’t need for Indian hockey is Ric Charlesworth walking away unhappily.
As I said, the next few months will decide what the future of this little project is and whether or not India is willing to embrace change. And the change has to be substantial.
•If you can’t make the semi-finals in 30 years the change has to be substantial…
That should send the message. May be it’s the failure to qualify for the Olympics is the catalyst for the change that needs to occur because that in itself was such a great shock to the system. It’s like a patient who has a cardiac risk and until they have a heart-attack they they don’t change their dietary habits, and exercise, they don’t stop smoking, they don’t start taking the medication. It’s the shock of the event that brings about the change
•That’s a doctor speaking…
Yes…
•Ric, spoken like a true Australian. Keep on being a true Australian. And stay on in India because Indian hockey needs you.And let me tell you, Indian hockey needs you more than English cricket needs you. You might have much more hope fixing Indian hockey than anybody has of fixing English cricket.
That’s a difficult task too. I Suspect…
•Stay on in India. Stay on in Chandigarh. My home town as well and I hope you can turn things around because if anybody can do it, it’s Ric Charlesworth.
Thank You